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calvin415
09-23-2010, 10:11 PM
So, much to my disappointment, we're 1.5" short on the skimmer we want... unfortunately nothing else comes close to the 1000g rating of the XP8000I. :(

So here is my thought process on comps... If anyone has some suggestions, or ideas that I may have overlooked, please let me know. Zone 1 of the sump is 20x19 so footprint must fit in this, and do not want a recirc as we don't want to run a feed pump.

Top of the list
XS-350
12" Body
24.75" Tall
3 Sicce PSK-1000 Pumps
Logic:
3x880GPH = 2640 GPH
3x32scfh or 3x906 LPH = 2718 LPH


Another ASM G5
8.5" Body
36" Tall
2xSedra 9000
Logic:
2x900GPH = 1800 GPH
2x600 LPH = 1200 LPH

XP5000I
12" Body
25" Tall
1xBubble Blaster HY5000S
1x600 GPH
1x2100 LPH

Budget $1000

Hoping there is something I'm missing, but XS-350 pumps the most water, and the most air... Would like something 36" tall, but they don't fit???

68sting
09-23-2010, 10:46 PM
build a new sump?

calvin415
09-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Offered, Dad didn't want to wait that long plus the cost to build another...

torquehound
09-24-2010, 03:47 AM
Go recirc, but tee off the overflow lines as feed and control with a gate valve instead of using a feed pump.

Powerman
09-24-2010, 05:28 AM
So what is the total system volume... never mind. I look at your thread. W/ the 8000 rated at 4 times system volume.... it would be a huge waste of money, power, and space. Getting much over 2 times system volume destroys performance because there is too much neck. Skimmate just lays on the surface until enough builds up in your system for it to puke out a bit and it shuts down again. A very good argument is made that skimmer performance of huge skimmers to system size actually removes less organics than a properly sized one.

With the choices you have I would go with the 5000. The XS 350 has new Sicce pumps so that is good. If one goes bad, then the whole skimmer is not out.... but seems multiple pumps are a pain to get tuned right. Plus the room and maintenance of 3 pumps. Much harder to tell if the skimmer is performing badly or one pump and which one.

The BB pumps have been pretty solid to now. The cone body is more efficient... although hard to put a number to that... while the 350 puts out more water, the 5000 has a much better air/water ratio. Ideally you want close to 1:1. The 5000 moves a bit more water than air but is much lower than the 350.

ASMs are completely overrated and outdated. They work fine but nowhere near the ratings they come with.

The 5000 would be my choice. I am willing to bet that it would out produce the 8000 on your system. I like going 1.5 times system volume. Properly sized with some head room. 2 times is fine IF you know you will be going bigger later. Anything over that is a waste.

Murfman
09-24-2010, 08:21 AM
Eric, I agree with Powerman. I have the Aqua Euro, Classic 400 and am very happy with it.

http://www.aquaeurousa.com/Protein_Skimmers.htm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220378785950&rvr_id=144799208449&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WVS%3F&GUID=522c48e511c0a09c135530e5ffe8740b&itemid=220378785950&ff4=263602_263622

calvin415
09-24-2010, 08:32 AM
Yes, the 5000 has a better air/water ratio over 3:1 but the 350 is close to 1:1 while moving 4.4x more water...

XS-350
12" Body
24.75" Tall
3 Sicce PSK-1000 Pumps
Logic:
Water 3x880GPH = 2640 GPH
Air 3x32scfh or 3x906 LPH = 2718 LPH

XP5000I
12" Body
25" Tall
1xBubble Blaster HY5000S
Water 1x600 GPH
Air 1x2100 LPH

calvin415
09-24-2010, 08:47 AM
ASMs are completely overrated and outdated. They work fine but nowhere near the ratings they come with.


I agree that ASM's are overrated why we went with a G5 instead of a 4, but ultimately all skimmers have no official formula to determine their actual "rating", instead it is at the discretion of the manufacturer, so who is to say an 8000 is actually overkill?

Powerman
09-24-2010, 09:36 AM
Yes, the 5000 has a better air/water ratio over 3:1 but the 350 is close to 1:1 while moving 4.4x more water...

XS-350
12" Body
24.75" Tall
3 Sicce PSK-1000 Pumps
Logic:
Water 3x880GPH = 2640 GPH
Air 3x32scfh or 3x906 LPH = 2718 LPH

XP5000I
12" Body
25" Tall
1xBubble Blaster HY5000S
Water 1x600 GPH
Air 1x2100 LPH

You need to compare gallons to gallons... same units. The 350 is moving 3 times the water to air. The 5000 is much closer of a one to one ratio.

the 5000 is in the same range of air draw, but much less water. With both skimmers over rated for your system... easily will handle it... you don't necessarily need the water processing power of the 350.

Powerman
09-24-2010, 09:43 AM
I agree that ASM's are overrated why we went with a G5 instead of a 4, but ultimately all skimmers have no official formula to determine their actual "rating", instead it is at the discretion of the manufacturer, so who is to say an 8000 is actually overkill?


Don't get me started about ratings.... talking to a few manufacturers and it is clear there are some chicken bones and voodoo involved. But in their defense, the good makers spend plenty of time understanding what a given skimmer can and can't do and ratings from reputable skimmer makers are much more realistic than they ever have been.

The real problem is there is not a set unit for what a "bio load" is. So with out any set numerical rating for bioload or organic load, there is no way to come up with any meaningful skimmer rating.... other than trial and error and reputable manufacturer/enthusists putting out quality products for given systems.

Having said that... ASM G series have always been completely out in left field with their ratings. Owners seem to mistakenly think they have this big honken skimmer over skimming their system 5 times and that is good when in reality the skimmers are probably over rated by 4 or 5 times. Not hatin, just sayin.

Powerman
09-24-2010, 10:09 AM
How about this one...

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/VX-PS-A250.html

Anyone know how well the red dragon pulls water/air?

The 250 cone has not produced for some as they would like. Seems the neck to air volume is not what it should be. (too big of neck) Others are quite happy. RE has a great name and I'm not saying they are crap, just that expectations were very high and perhaps were not met.... just an opinion and there certainly are plenty of fan boys for the Alphas. Also I think the 250 was better balanced than the 200... maybe that is what I was thinking of.

If you want suggestions, there is simply no better skimmer in the market right now than ATB. If you are going to plop down the change for a Alpha, then consider a ATB 10.5 $1400 for the delux, $900 for the 1050 econo. Both Alpha and ATB use the Laguna 1500 block for the Red Dragon and Airstar. Red dragons are very pricey and no better than the Air Star. ATBs are simply the best balanced skimmers around. Set and forget and customer service second to none. Damn near legendary.

The Bubble Blasters have been very solid for price and performance and very welcomed in the market. Anything powered by a Askol pump will be right up your alley and perfectly matched for your system. Askolls use the same Laguna block but not as exspensive. Look into SWC and Huricones. Hurricone are simply Reef Octopus skimmers modified with Askol pump. Yet even many SWC owners are switching over to Bubble blasters, yet most of those are with the multiple Sicce models... not switching Askols for BBs.

The 5000 you can't go wrong with, if you want to step it up, look at ATBs. Alphas are matched well with them too. Constant comparisons between the two. Personally I give the edge to ATB for inovation and customer service over the late commer of Alpha. Bubble Kings are crazy cool, but price for performance is way out of whack. Beautiful enough to be in a museum though. Almost a waste to cover them in poop. :)

calvin415
09-24-2010, 10:10 AM
How about this one...

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/VX-PS-A250.html

Comparing, it looks like the 5000 would outperform???

calvin415
09-24-2010, 10:13 AM
there are some chicken bones and voodoo involved.

LMAO, couldn't agree more with that statement. ;)

calvin415
09-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Looking at the ATB, it seems like the cone is smaller than both the Octo and the R/E yet they are rating it higher than the rest... So frustrating! I guess we could just save a bit with the Octo and put it into livestock or other equipment we really don't need. ;)

Powerman
09-24-2010, 10:26 AM
How about this one...

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/VX-PS-A250.html

Comparing, it looks like the 5000 would outperform???

Both skimmers you are looking at are quality skimmers with good balance. So don't get fixated on air draw.... it is not the end all be all. But since both are well made, then numbers wise the 5000 will take it.

However, it isn't that the 5000 will do any more. A skimmer accurately rated for your 215 will remove 100% of the water pholic organics and run 100% of the time. A skimmer rated for twice your system will still only remove 100% of organics, but it will only produce for 50% of the time. So between the two you are looking at it isn't necessarily about which will out perform, they will both remove the same but the 5000 will do it in say 40% of the time and the 250 will do it in 50% on the time. Does that make sense?

calvin415
09-24-2010, 10:34 AM
Yep, guess I'll just present the case and see which one he wants to go with.

Thanks for helping, throwing out suggestions and keeping my units in check (sure you're not my Chemistry teacher? ;) )

ReefJerk
09-24-2010, 10:41 AM
Get the XS-350 and some acrylic tube and extend it to 36". You know that's what you want to do deep-down, Eric. Do it, do it, do it...

LooseHip
09-24-2010, 10:44 AM
. ATBs are simply the best balanced skimmers around. Set and forget and customer service second to none. Damn near legendary.

I would agree with the set it and forget it... I have the ATB medium with the airstar (currently oversized for my system). But the skimmer only requires ocassional cleaning no adjustment is ever needed (8-9 inches of water is its happy place), not to mention the damn thing is so quite I can't even hear it running. I agree on the customer service too Victor is the man...

Powerman
09-24-2010, 10:44 AM
Yep, guess I'll just present the case and see which one he wants to go with.

Thanks for helping, throwing out suggestions and keeping my units in check (sure you're not my Chemistry teacher? ;) )

No sweat. Always track your units :)

ReefJerk
09-24-2010, 10:44 AM
Get the XS-350 and some acrylic tube and extend it to 36". You know that's what you want to do deep-down, Eric. Do it, do it, do it...
Better yet, call them and I bet they would do it for you for less than an additional $300.

calvin415
09-24-2010, 10:56 AM
LOL! Cliff, I actually considered doing just that, but not sure how long it would take me to do something like that. :( I'm leaning toward the ATB, but ultimately it will be someone else's wallet so it's his call. If they will all do a great job, I'm sure he'd rather put money into other things.

calvin415
09-24-2010, 01:14 PM
Do you have a link to somewhere offering this price? Found the Econo for 900, but the Deluxe is much taller and something to consider.

"ATB 10.5 $1400 for the delux"

Powerman
09-24-2010, 01:40 PM
Aquarium Specialty, or Reef Specialty. Premium had them but when I looked no ATB.

calvin415
09-24-2010, 01:45 PM
Well crap, was finally sold on the 1050A (airstar 1300 right?) but noticed the Alpha comes completely apart for cleaning... Can't do that with the ATB, but I don't want to risk having to replace a red dragon.

calvin415
09-24-2010, 01:47 PM
Just looked at Aquarium Specialty and their pics show a different bottom plus white instead but uses the Sicce pump... ???

calvin415
09-24-2010, 02:39 PM
NM, realized it's the 1050 not the 1050A... Still curious if the bottoms can be removed on the 1050/1050A. Have a call in with Salty Critter to find out if they can get it a 1050A in white and w/ removable bottom.

calvin415
09-24-2010, 02:44 PM
Holy crap they are quick on response! I now have the ATB 1050A (Airstar1300) in White w/ removable bottom on order. Due in approx 2 weeks, ATB is to have them in the US in 10 days. Thanks Powerman for the suggestion.

Gomojoe
09-24-2010, 02:58 PM
So who is going to write the article for Skimmers? Doing the upgrade this weekend and should have the ability to post articles after that!

calvin415
09-24-2010, 03:02 PM
Powerman certainly has the knowledge... Or I could start it and have him edit if he doesn't have the time.

Powerman
09-24-2010, 03:09 PM
So who is going to write the article for Skimmers? Doing the upgrade this weekend and should have the ability to post articles after that!

Here you go. Use it as you please.

http://www.3reef.com/forums/protein-skimmers/all-about-skimmers-skimmers-skimmer-85389.html

I can give you a script copy if you want.

Gomojoe
09-24-2010, 03:12 PM
Sweet! I need to find an easy button smiley to post!!!!!! LOL!

calvin415
09-24-2010, 03:14 PM
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=259848936727&id=aee46a5b49759709454516bd0f4fe9a7&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.wegreenheads.com%2fimages%2fe asy_button.jpg

calvin415
09-24-2010, 03:19 PM
Here you go. Use it as you please.

http://www.3reef.com/forums/protein-skimmers/all-about-skimmers-skimmers-skimmer-85389.html

I can give you a script copy if you want.

Very, very niiiice!

crisc
10-27-2010, 12:49 PM
Nice article Powerman! Well written and to the point!